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unc greatest ever

Posted 7:52 pm, 11/10/2014

Oh yea, you dook fans still didn't answer the question? Say the NCAA don't do anything or very little to unc over this. Like no titles or wins , what will you do or say? Just wondering

unc greatest ever

Posted 7:50 pm, 11/10/2014

Not proven that they didn't have enough credits to play. That's the part everybody's not looking at. If they made enough credits in there other classes to have high enough gpa. Then nothing they can do. If they didn't Then yes. But the coach & ball players won titles on court no cheating on court. Them teams were great ( BASKETBALL TEAMS ) why they were and earned championships. They were better teams than dook "s teams them years =fact. Don't care what you or I or anyone else says.ncaa only judge to say what will be done.

sheik

Posted 3:35 pm, 11/10/2014

Ole UNCGE will soon have his fists up in his eyes

devilnation

Posted 2:46 pm, 11/10/2014

Yea they cheated to obtain them, so like anything you obtain under false pretenses its not yours.

unc greatest ever

Posted 2:35 pm, 11/10/2014

Again shoulda, woulda, coulda and what you think. Like I said I'll wait and see. Unc won championships on court , this unfair advantage BS, is just that. Saying they practiced 10-15 hours more a week is BS. Where your proof?? Unc teams were better and won titles everything else is just a excuse

DevilNation

Posted 12:57 am, 11/10/2014

Walden is turning UNC G that will be the end for Roy

DevilNation

Posted 12:56 am, 11/10/2014

Crowder helps Walden

Wayne Walden was the academic counselor for the basketball program when the team won the 2005 championship and another in 2009. Williams brought him from Kansas in 2003, where he held a similar position.

Walden told Wainstein he knew students enrolled in the AFAM classes had no contact with faculty, and he thought Crowder "probably was doing some of the grading."

DevilNation

Posted 12:55 am, 11/10/2014

the 05 championship is gone the entire team was ineligible looks like McCants told the truth

devilnation

Posted 12:54 am, 11/10/2014

During the season that the UNC men's basketball team made its run to the 2005 NCAA championship, its players accounted for 35 enrollments in classes that didn't meet and yielded easy, high grades awarded by the architect of the university's academic scandal.

The classes, some advertised as lectures but that never met and others listed as independent studies, were supervised by Deborah Crowder, a manager in African and Afro-American studies who a report from former U.S. Justice Department official Kenneth Wainstein says graded required end-of-semester work leniently as part of a "paper class" scheme to keep athletes eligible. Crowder was not a professor and admitted to investigators that she assigned grades without reading the papers.

Of the 35 bogus class enrollments, nine came during the fall semester of 2004, when eligibility for the spring was determined. Twenty-six were during the spring semester, when the season climaxed with a victory over Illinois in St. Louis.

One of the basketball players, Rashad McCants, had previously told ESPN he took nothing but paper classes in the spring 2005 semester. His transcript showed he was in three independent studies plus one lecture class that had no instruction. He received straight A-minuses, making the dean's list.

The N&O reported in June that five members of the championship team, including four key players, had relied heavily on the paper classes: 52 enrollments during their time at UNC. The Wainstein documents, however, have more detail and show a heavy concentration during the spring semester of 2005, when the team was driving toward a national title.

That semester alone raises questions about whether the team enjoyed a competitive advantage, simply because players didn't have to attend many classes and were guaranteed high grades. At least five players took three bogus classes each, the Wainstein documents show.

In the preceding semester, fall 2004, the team accounted for nine enrollments in five bogus classes, including one with four players attending. Three players took at least one independent study, the records show.

At least half of the 2,500 independent studies generated by the department over the life of the scandal had no instructor and were created by Crowder, the Wainstein report found.

The new information is likely to draw scrutiny from the NCAA, which reopened its investigation this summer, shortly after ESPN and The N&O reported the heavy involvement in paper classes by the basketball team.

UNC Athletic Director Bubba Cunningham has said the NCAA is reviewing athlete transcripts as part of its investigation.

The Wainstein documents also reveal a friendly relationship between Crowder and Wayne Walden, coach Roy Williams' hand-picked academic counselor for the basketball team.

They show the two working together to get players into the classes and Walden providing tickets and other team freebies to Crowder.

Walden told investigators he was aware that Crowder was grading the papers, but he said he can't recall telling Williams.

Paper classes packed

The documents are among roughly 1,100 pages of supporting material released along with the 131-page report that UNC made public Oct. 22.

They illustrate the depths of an 18-year scandal that experts say is the biggest academic fraud in college athletics. Nearly half of the 3,100 students in the classes were athletes, and the report cites pressure from the Academic Support Program for Student-Athletes as a driver behind the classes.

The Wainstein report does not identify which athletes took how many paper classes, nor does it break out the number of athletes by sport who took them each semester. Wainstein said he was prohibited from releasing that information by the federal Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act, a law that universities have repeatedly used to shield most education records.

But the report does show the number of enrollments by class and by semester for the three sports that used them the most: football, and men's and women's basketball. For a men's basketball team that typically includes about 15 players a year, the numbers are substantial.

In the 18 years of paper classes, men's basketball players accounted for 363 enrollments, an average of 20 enrollments per year.

The football team accounted for 1,377 enrollments during that period, but the football team has roughly nine times the number of athletes.

The Wainstein report shows that from 2000 through 2007, five or more basketball players were enrolled in each of 16 lecture-style classes that had been quietly converted into no-show classes. Twelve of them took place after Williams arrived at UNC in 2003 to coach the team.

Basketball players continued to enroll in sizable numbers until the spring 2008 semester. From there, the enrollments slowed to no more than five a semester.

Williams' changing story

The N&O's reporting revealed the scandal in 2011, but Williams, for a long time, provided little detail as to what he knew about the classes. Numerous times he said he was proud of the academic experience his players received.

"Our track record is pretty doggone good," Williams told a Charlotte radio station on Aug. 15, 2012. "And our track record has been pretty doggone good for 15 years at Kansas, nine years at North Carolina. And we know how much we emphasize the academic side in the basketball office. We know what our guys are majoring in. We know � every day we're in touch with those kids. So it's something, again, that I'm very proud of."

Four months later, at a press conference, an N&O reporter asked Williams why his players had stopped taking AFAM paper classes by the start of the fall 2009 semester. Was it because Crowder had retired, or did someone in the program notice something wrong?

Williams responded: "You say we either did something, or we didn't do something. Maybe guys, girls, just decided not to take certain classes."

The athletic department later adopted that same position, with spokesman Steve Kirschner saying in a statement on Nov. 16, 2012: "Different players have different interests."

When Wainstein's report came out, it included new information from Williams that provided a possible explanation why his players weren't enrolling in AFAM classes.

He told Wainstein's investigators that shortly after he arrived at UNC, he was concerned that so many of his athletes were majoring in AFAM; the 2005 team alone had 10 of 15 players with that major. He said he told one of his assistant coaches, Joe Holladay, to make sure they weren't being steered to the major.

The report also said Williams knew McCants took "three or four" independent study courses in the spring 2005 semester. McCants took three that were listed as an independent study. The fourth was identified as AFAM 65, Topics in Afro-American Studies. That, too, was a paper class. In the Wainstein report, Williams said he told Holladay to emphasize that his players should be in lecture classes instead of independent study.

After the Wainstein report came out, Williams said in two news conferences that he was concerned about his players clustering in a major. Records show they continued to cluster in another popular major, Communications, while many others were listed as undeclared.

Kirschner said in an email that Williams would not be made available for an interview. Kirschner stood by his November 2012 statement.

UNC spokesman Joel Curran said Friday that the university would not respond to questions until the NCAA investigation is completed.

Crowder helps Walden

Wayne Walden was the academic counselor for the basketball program when the team won the 2005 championship and another in 2009. Williams brought him from Kansas in 2003, where he held a similar position.

Walden told Wainstein he knew students enrolled in the AFAM classes had no contact with faculty, and he thought Crowder "probably was doing some of the grading."

But he said he saw nothing wrong with the classes because nonathletes also were enrolled. He said he also didn't recall telling Williams or Holladay.

Walden left UNC in 2009, about the same time Crowder retired. He married and moved to Texas to work for a health care company. In a short phone interview with The N&O in September 2011, Walden said he was unaware of any easy professors or easy classes within the AFAM department.

"No, I wouldn't say there's go-to classes or anything like that," Walden said.

The correspondence between Walden and Crowder shows numerous efforts to set up athletes in "independent studies." It is unclear how many of them are men's basketball players; Walden also counseled athletes in volleyball, swimming and diving.

In one email, Crowder seemed to be taking care to not have too many athletes in any one class. She wrote that she could place an athlete in an independent study because "I have added several non-athletic persons ..."

In another, from Sept. 20, 2005, Walden was seeking an independent study for a student who struggled to learn. Crowder put him in a paper class despite his lacking an introductory course from the department.

"We have a student with some diagnosed learning disabilities and we are trying to help him with his reading and writing skills while also tutoring him in his current courses," Walden wrote. "I sense that he is getting a little overwhelmed and wondered if there might be a course that you would recommend that he might still be able to add in order that he might drop one of his current courses."

Crowder agreed to enroll the student, even as she noted that "(w)e are getting pressure from on-high to reduce the numbers of independent study type courses."

The emails also show a tight relationship between Crowder and Walden. He offered her tickets to games, which she accepted, and he gave her team paraphernalia such as clothing, calendars and posters. Crowder told Walden in 2004 that his predecessor, Burgess McSwain, would drop off team calendars and posters for her to distribute.

They went, she wrote, to "some of the various and sundry people who helped keep these guys in school."

unc greatest ever

Posted 5:28 pm, 11/08/2014

I know why, because your ahead of those teams in ncaa record book. Unc ahead of them plus you dookies in record book that's why. Like I said shoulda, woulda, coulda it's all talk and what one thinks right now.I'll wait till something happens before I worry about anything. Question devilnation or any state or other dook fans----- say they come back and don't do anything or very little to hurt unc what will you do or say then? I mean really not being a smartbut but really wondering??

DevilNation

Posted 12:00 pm, 11/08/2014

This would be the perceptible **** hitting the fan. lol wonder if the UNC KoolAid Drinkers realize the wainstein report is just the beginning. Subpoena's will only unveil more of the truth, if you dont think it will ask MR, Godell how it worked out for him lol...... Your beloved UNC cheaters will not survive this including Ole Roy Banners and Wins...... It will not be quick, it will however be devastating.


In the words of infamous wizofoz munchikins, ding dong the witch is dead.


Unc have you guys ever wondered why Duke fans dont dislike ncstate wake etc etc etc and vs versus.....

DevilNation

Posted 11:54 am, 11/08/2014

What this could mean

McAdoo's lawsuit could potentially uncover even more than the ****ing Wainstein investigation, which was by far the most thorough and provided a slew of information that had previously been discounted by UNC.

The difference is in the power of subpoena.

McAdoo's lawyers will be able to depose people who declined to talk to Wainstein -- potentially key participants whom Wainstein called out for refusing to cooperate, like the former director of football Cynthia Reynolds and the former interim head football coach Everett Withers.

Withers is now a coach at James Madison University and Reynolds is in academics at Cornell.

The former associate dean and director of the men's basketball team, Carolyn Cannon, and another counselor for football, Octavus Barnes, also refused to cooperate, according to the Wainstein report.

Willingham, who is suing UNC in a whistleblower-related lawsuit, said she also hopes to depose people who were not interviewed by Wainstein's team, such as members of the board of trustees.

"There's still a lot of denial, and Wainstein did not conduct his investigation with anyone under oath, nor did he have subpoena power," Willingham said.

unc greatest ever

Posted 10:13 am, 11/06/2014

Don't see how "93 title would be vacated or 2009 at all. "93 had the same players from the last 2 seasons on there team. So how did they make grade avg before the paper classes? I hope you don't think dook don't have paper classes or other schools. I'd bet anybody anything schools have some sort of paper classes.dook had sociology class which I've heard was a 1 paper class. It's like this, no matter what I think or you or anyone else. Ncaa sports is a cash cow for the ncaa and schools. Like anything with cash involved, there going to be dirty things did to better the person or companies or team or in this case programs. If you think unc the only school with paper classes then you will believe anything. To be truthful, this might open door to professors at other schools to come forward, including dook & state. Maybe not only time will tell. But the door been open now and some sports programs are I'd say Shaking in there shoes.l

central_dad_and_cheer

Posted 10:09 am, 11/06/2014

unc greatest ever (view profile)

Posted 8:17 am, 11/06/2014

Believe what you want, but if you think schools break d1 sports rules or don't ever commit d1 violations and don't say anything about it then have fun living in the world of my team never has never will do anything wrong world. Because it's a ncaa violation to buy a player a pack of gum. If a player"s friend buys a drink and gives it to a ncaa player that's a violation. As crazy as it sounds it's a ncaa rule.But keep living the see no evil hear no evil on my school/team world.

Some incorrect information is included in this post. You have probably never read any part of the rule book, or you're an habitual liar.

DevilNation

Posted 9:15 am, 11/06/2014

Below, is a guideline set forth on shame classes, but keep in mind it was 18 athletes over 4 year period.


This is a little more then 1% of what UNC has been proven guilty for by your own admissions 1% fing percent and you still dont grasp this....

Again my prediction just for the basketball program is

1993-2005 titles vacated as 1993 was the startup and 2005 it was running ramped. I leave the 09 title because they was trying to vear away from it.

considering a estimation of 60% were ineligible 60% of wins will be vacated, guessing thats around 260 wins.

a loss of 10 scholarships over a 5 year period

4 year post season ban......

NCAA will pose a huge fine and direct the money towards some sort of AA educational programs.

These are moderate/conservative estimations. If they use the blue print set up for Minnesota it will be much much much worse.

DevilNation

Posted 9:06 am, 11/06/2014

Following an internal investigation launched on March 19, 1999, the university self-imposed the following sanctions on its men's basketball program, among others:[5][7]

    On June 25, 1999, the university paid $1.5 million to buy out the contract of Clem Haskins. Gonzaga head coach Dan Monson was hired a month later to replace Haskins�nearly four months after Gonzaga beat Minnesota in the NCAA Tournament.[7] On November 19, 1999, the same day that Minnesota released its report of its internal investigation of the scandal, Minnesota president Mark Yudof accepted the resignations of vice president McKinley Boston and men's athletic director Mark Dienhart.[8]

    On May 13, 2002, Hennepin County District Judge Deborah Hedlund ordered Haskins to return $815,000 of the $1.5 million in buyout money paid to Haskins nearly three years earlier. This was based on an arbitrator's recommendation, after the university argued that Haskins committed fraud by lying to the NCAA yet accepting the buyout money.[9]

    NCAA[edit]

    Following its investigation, the NCAA issued the following sanctions:[5]

      show-cause penalties for Haskins and Newby (both until October 23, 2007) and Gangelhoff (until October 23, 2005).

DevilNation

Posted 8:57 am, 11/06/2014

UNC just doesnt grasp the severity of this...... THIS IS THE LARGEST SCANDAL IN NCAA HISTORY!!! do you comprehend that, its not just a slap on the wrist or a minor violation LARGEST IN NCAA HISTORY i repeat, again you could add up every single acc infraction for the last 30 years and it wouldn't equal this. So do all schools have rogue players here and there absolutely, not by any means on this level.

unc greatest ever

Posted 8:17 am, 11/06/2014

Believe what you want, but if you think schools break d1 sports rules or don't ever commit d1 violations and don't say anything about it then have fun living in the world of my team never has never will do anything wrong world. Because it's a ncaa violation to buy a player a pack of gum. If a player"s friend buys a drink and gives it to a ncaa player that's a violation. As crazy as it sounds it's a ncaa rule.But keep living the see no evil hear no evil on my school/team world.

BillMurray

Posted 7:45 am, 11/06/2014

Bill Murray------ you are the one who thinks coach k and dook are as pure as white snow. I have not said unc didn't cheat in classroom. They admitted they have. Unc does fishy things = true . But if you believe that all schools dont cheat some or have easy pretty much no show classes 1 paper classes or something counting dook. Then your crazy Plus blinded by all your dook love. Go back to when Dean, coach k , Roy, any basketball or any d1 sports team coach started , and you could find some form of cheating or breaking the rules. No one can tell me anything else. Ncaa sports is a cash cow for schools and the ncaa .

Thank you for informing me as to what I believe in, don't think I have mentioned what I believe. However we are discussing UNC and its problem but your childish approach (I am rubber you are glue, everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you) that upsets everyone. The belief that all schools cheat, well that is all of your fantancy, because you have no facts and misery loves company so you fabricate supposedly facts, but are just opinions. Your motivation in all of this is misery loves company. I would hate to have your outlook on life and hope that one day all of this conspiracy approach to life will pass and you can be happy with your life, but I don't think so. "No one can tell me anything else" is a correct statement on your part, because you are too busy trying to force your opinion upon everyone else, too much Fox News (stop watching). Have a great day and try to find good in mankind, you might be happier!

unc greatest ever

Posted 8:48 pm, 11/05/2014

Bill Murray ----- see you didn't read my post on other thread. I will bump it up so you can find it.

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